Supplements Killing Your Gains?

[Ironman404]

https://breakingmuscle.com/healthy-eating/your-supplements-are-killing-your-gains

Interesting article.

I was reading up on coq10 and noticed that one of the benefits listed was reduced muscle damage. I thought this could actually be counterproductive for bodybuilding?

 

[MotorCityMuscleMachine]

https://breakingmuscle.com/healthy-eating/your-supplements-are-killing-your-gains

Interesting article.

I was reading up on coq10 and noticed that one of the benefits listed was reduced muscle damage. I thought this could actually be counterproductive for bodybuilding?

And, apparently there is an Ubiquinol supp I "think" called Qunol..? I'll look it up, (in liquid form ) , as we as a Turmeric liquid that are supposed to be fantastic products

The Quinol will be my next health /heart supp to try.

MotorCity

 

[01dragonslayer]

https://breakingmuscle.com/healthy-eating/your-supplements-are-killing-your-gains

Interesting article.

I was reading up on coq10 and noticed that one of the benefits listed was reduced muscle damage. I thought this could actually be counterproductive for bodybuilding?

Very interesting. Good read. Thanks brotha.

 

[Ironman404]

Very interesting. Good read. Thanks brotha.

Np man.

I was counting up all of the non-body building supps I take daily...so many. I got to thinking not only how much I spend on the crap, but if I am actually benefiting from them. Then I come across this article and think damn am I actually hindering gains?

Currently I take

Fish oil
Orange Triad (multi)
Vitamin D3
CoQ10 (ubiquinol)
Baby aspirin
Tudca

 

[BobbySweeney]

Stolen from another forum but relevant here:


Thumbs up
Quote Originally Posted by Mike83 View Post
taking oxidants is confusing, how do you know if its going to be pro-ox.

lets say you take a combination of antioxidants, green tea, r-ala, grape seed, vit. c, ect.

What type of activity would this create, a positive or negative balance, how do you tell?

Also, does Choline bitrate combat this?

Another question, does L-carnitine create oxidative stress? (acetly and prop)

Mike83,

These are absolutely phenomenal questions...in fact, with all the PHs and the like on the market...basic nutrients become more of a mystery in the eyes of the bb community...

It is so highly unfortunate - because true adequacy to dimensions of worth in this game begin here...with what has gotten rep as "the basics" - hehe, funny that most haven't a clue.

So, while you have asked a whole slew of questions, I will attempt to take each one in turn:

(1) When you take a slew of antioxidants, they have, in effect, the opportunity to work in concert (i.e. - work in a synergistic way as some like to dub it), subtract from the efforts of another, or shift the balance of oxidation potential in the pro-oxidant domain. Obviously, these activities go from one end of a spectrum to another. One of the few ways to really tell what is going on with your values is through blood work. Obviously biochemical testing is NOT available to all (and NOT available without considerable fee if you aren't willing to invest...but hell, some of the things I see people invest in here are sure as sh*t worth a lot less in the long run...nonetheless, I digress...).. Tests to judge your basics: A, C, and E are available. Vit E status tends to be worthless so we can save you some $$$ off the bat. A serum retinol for Vit A and something called a Plasma 2-6-dichlorophenol-indophenol test is used for Vit C (although sometimes reliability and validity are questioned in inexperienced labs, simply because they are NOT run that frequent...hell, they are NOT run ENOUGH is likely a better way to state this!!!)...but what about my exotics then dinoiii...what about my grapeseeds and what about my green teas, and the whole slew of others that impart some sort of effect? Well - each of the exoctics tends to offer some sort of effect on those of "less exotic" status. We'll just take Grapeseed for example because it is one of the ones that you mentioned above...pure grapeseed oil's rationale for worth stems from a couple of components...something called OPCs (or oligomeric procyanidins) which are POORLY UNDERSTOOD and then good ole Vit E. That's right...and many companies try to take grapeseed and exclaim this and that about extracts which in original studies, the antioxidant value comes from nothing more than the alpha tocopherol (Vit E) component...so a Vit E level may give you some indirect idea of what the heck benefit you see from grapeseed provided it isn't an extract. As far as extracts are concerned this is a whole other ball of wax....namely, if it is based on the OPC content...there has been a failure for replicatability to such effects due to this kind of thing and the dosing has obviously in turn been screwed up on the efficacy front. So a simple buyer beware and trust in your antioxidant supplier is probably the simple adivce I could give you here.

(2) So you wanted also I believe a quantitative guesstimate on balances of various vitamin statuses...and this information is, in effect, out there...unfortuantely without making this a post no one will ultimately read...I will attempt to post an article from another place I wrote (at a later point) about this very topic. For now, try and understand as much as you can about each because oxidation and its effects are an important aspect (all too often overlooked in bb).

(3) As I have talked about in the second point and you as well brought it up in your questions, was the term "oxidation." Understand that oxidation is essential!!! Each time you ingest something, you oxidize. (kind of a bare bones way to look at it, but its true!)...The importance is NOT so much elimination in this sense, BUT CONTROL and at the right times. For instance, a recent topic that has cropped up on other boards is the question of antioxidant use in the post-workout realm (in fact, many companies have gone as far as throwing antioxidants into post-workout formulas)...this has been blatantly disproven as the "optimal" time to ingest such items.

One of the most misunderstood topics is basic "supplementation" to begin. The ideal case scenario would have most people doing as the word suggests "supplementing" a sound diet/exercise program consistent with the goals they have set in place. Oftentimes there is an unfortunate mismatch in the methodology employed here, however. The supplements take the front seat to a crappy diet, or the training only preceeds a trip to the golden arches, or perhaps on a little more mundane level, supplements are taken at the wrong time due to horrbile advertisement and abuse of the underlying science that may give them the very applicability that offers them breath in the first place and many will chalk it up to "the real world being superior to the scientific domain." Not only do I call their bluff - but also HORSESH*T! Step as far away from that person's advice that you can.

(4) Choline Bitrate: Various choline compounds are poorly understood and likely even more poorly studied. Contrary to much suggestion, there is little difference to the various types of molecular structure of the choline molecules. Choline simply comes into play during extended training sessions or endurance type activities (however, my belief in the latter has significantly waned)... There is a reduction in plasma choline as exercise extends past a certain point and the relationship thought to exist between its potential donation of said groups to acetylcholine...a pertinent neurotransmitter, whereby reduction of acetylcholine levels through extended periods could affect nerve impulses and subseuent transmission at the neuromuscular junction. SO what the hell does this mean? If your levels of acetylcholine drop significantly enough through exercise, it will ultimately affect endurance and subsequently performance. SO the hypothesis goes...given adequate substrate (i.e. - choline), you may be able to delay such a response and improve athletic performance and fatigue. Unfortunately, much of the research to date has focused on endurance athletes (swimmers and the like) so its applicability to various resistance methodology is not well understood. This is, therefore a topic independent of the antioxidant situation suggested above.

(5) Your last question was..."does L-carnitine create oxidative stress?" Recall, my answers above suggested ANY time you ingest ANY thing, you WILL "oxidize"...this is the pure nature of the beast...food, supplements, et al... Now, you have offered up propionyl vs. acetylated verisons. Some time ago, it was hypothesized that oral ingestion of L-carnitine would, in effect, create fat oxidation...kind of a misnomer really... Why it was thought that this would be the case was due to something called the "carnitine shuttle" that effective transports fat molecules across the mitochondria (for the non-science types, the mitochondria, better-known to everyone and their brother as the quoted "powerhouse of the cell" sees knowledge literally wane after expression of that simple nomenclature). In fact, early in vitro models would likely support this as well...to make a long-story short...it hasn't exactly panned out this way via studies of the clinical (maybe this could be equated with the "real world" except better controlled for extraneous variables) variety. But, hold the phone...because the propionyl and acetylated versions offer us a plethora of different benefit. Because this is already a book though, I will spare you some of the gory details...however, lets see a potential way the molecules could, in effect, impart effect on the oxidation model.

There is this area of your brain called the striatal cortex (not to worry no tests on this material will follow)...the importance of this little area is that it is the ultimate source of dopamine production...so what, get to the point...geesh...ok, ... so in effect you have concurrent interaction between dopamine and cortisol...keeping dopamine working well (despite a natural age-loss of dopaminergic receptors), you can inhibit cortisol's catabolic effects....oh yeah, catabolism produces very pronounced oxdized byproducts! See the connection?

Propionyl L-carnitine (PLC) has proven its worth in a bit of a different sense. PLC actually protects the integrity of the vascular (blood vessel) walls and with it we have gotten great response in people with poor circulation. It is also hypothesized to be the rationale for why this agent may be good for guys with erectile dysfunction and the like...but don't get excited reading that news,...it is kind of expensive in the true quantities needed to see results and they only tend to occur in reproducible fashion with significant time on the supplement regime. The acetylated version may be a better addition for now due to its cost and the relationship to the iron game...we'll hope you have better plans in store for erectile issues should that be an issue.

Hope this helps
Feel free to ask questions if the science-laiden post doesn't make complete sense...I am typing it in stream-of-conscious manner too this AM.

D_



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